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	<title>Comments on: Web Design vs. Software Engineering Smackdown</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.annezelenka.com/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.annezelenka.com/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown</link>
	<description>a blog about the connected age</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 06:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Christopher Fahey</title>
		<link>http://www.annezelenka.com/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-178</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Fahey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Mar 2006 23:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.annezelenka.com/testbed/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-178</guid>
		<description>I think 37s doesn't just think that text-based functional specs are bad. They hate even the visual specs you suggest may be a design-centric alternative. The point is to code something, not to document it. I don't, by the way, totally agree with them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think 37s doesn&#8217;t just think that text-based functional specs are bad. They hate even the visual specs you suggest may be a design-centric alternative. The point is to code something, not to document it. I don&#8217;t, by the way, totally agree with them.</p>
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		<title>By: gingajoy</title>
		<link>http://www.annezelenka.com/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-177</link>
		<dc:creator>gingajoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 23:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.annezelenka.com/testbed/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-177</guid>
		<description>simulations?  well, we are beginning some work/research in that area--we are funded by the NSF to write a catalyst proposal for a Center for Social Science Learning right now. (and I am out of my depth, big time, but it's exciting nonetheless). maybe we can chat about it some time--i'd be interested in your take on the proposal.

circuitous route.  yep, english, teaching, web design, a kid, a non-tech dissertation, and now this place. how did it happen?  i count myself lucky, though.

let's chat over email some time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>simulations?  well, we are beginning some work/research in that area&#8211;we are funded by the NSF to write a catalyst proposal for a Center for Social Science Learning right now. (and I am out of my depth, big time, but it&#8217;s exciting nonetheless). maybe we can chat about it some time&#8211;i&#8217;d be interested in your take on the proposal.</p>
<p>circuitous route.  yep, english, teaching, web design, a kid, a non-tech dissertation, and now this place. how did it happen?  i count myself lucky, though.</p>
<p>let&#8217;s chat over email some time.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne Zelenka</title>
		<link>http://www.annezelenka.com/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-176</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Zelenka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 09:41:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.annezelenka.com/testbed/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-176</guid>
		<description>Hi again Joy,

I'll only be in Maui for another six weeks, but that should get me through the bulk of the winter weather, thank goodness. We're moving to Colorado in late March to live near my family.

Your research center looks so interesting. I didn't know anyone was looking at the use of technology in the humanities, but why not? I got back into tech by a circuitous route related to technology in social science research--I started reading up on social sciences simulations while I was studying health behavior. Then I decided I really missed programming. Shortly thereafter, I started tech blogging. Don't know how I'll get back into paid work, but I'm excited at the possibilities.

Yes, maybe we'll meet some day. I hope so!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi again Joy,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll only be in Maui for another six weeks, but that should get me through the bulk of the winter weather, thank goodness. We&#8217;re moving to Colorado in late March to live near my family.</p>
<p>Your research center looks so interesting. I didn&#8217;t know anyone was looking at the use of technology in the humanities, but why not? I got back into tech by a circuitous route related to technology in social science research&#8211;I started reading up on social sciences simulations while I was studying health behavior. Then I decided I really missed programming. Shortly thereafter, I started tech blogging. Don&#8217;t know how I&#8217;ll get back into paid work, but I&#8217;m excited at the possibilities.</p>
<p>Yes, maybe we&#8217;ll meet some day. I hope so!</p>
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		<title>By: gingajoy</title>
		<link>http://www.annezelenka.com/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-175</link>
		<dc:creator>gingajoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 03:30:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.annezelenka.com/testbed/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-175</guid>
		<description>with one crucial difference--you are in Maui (if blogger profile is right) while i am in "10 below" effing Michigan!!

actually, I am right here:
http://www.matrix.msu.edu/

maybe our paths will cross one day--hopefully *not* in michigan;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>with one crucial difference&#8211;you are in Maui (if blogger profile is right) while i am in &#8220;10 below&#8221; effing Michigan!!</p>
<p>actually, I am right here:<br />
<a href="http://www.matrix.msu.edu/" rel="nofollow">http://www.matrix.msu.edu/</a></p>
<p>maybe our paths will cross one day&#8211;hopefully *not* in michigan;)</p>
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		<title>By: Anne Zelenka</title>
		<link>http://www.annezelenka.com/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-173</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Zelenka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 03:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.annezelenka.com/testbed/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-173</guid>
		<description>Joy, it is so great to find someone who can relate to both my blogs. Sometimes I feel like two completely different people: the technologist and the mother.

Yes, as far as my Momorandum experiment goes, I'm playing all roles. Megite is developed by someone else, so I can only be a user and tester on that, but I have built some pieces that may become my own version some day. I agree--there is often a huge disconnect between programmers and users. I've seen that in all my development jobs. And we see it now in Web 2.0, where many systems are developed with geeks in mind. Megite is one good example: it only works for heavily linked domains. Momblogs don't link much too each other, but it doesn't mean there aren't conversations rippling through.

Anyway, nice to meet you! I will be keeping up with your blog for sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joy, it is so great to find someone who can relate to both my blogs. Sometimes I feel like two completely different people: the technologist and the mother.</p>
<p>Yes, as far as my Momorandum experiment goes, I&#8217;m playing all roles. Megite is developed by someone else, so I can only be a user and tester on that, but I have built some pieces that may become my own version some day. I agree&#8211;there is often a huge disconnect between programmers and users. I&#8217;ve seen that in all my development jobs. And we see it now in Web 2.0, where many systems are developed with geeks in mind. Megite is one good example: it only works for heavily linked domains. Momblogs don&#8217;t link much too each other, but it doesn&#8217;t mean there aren&#8217;t conversations rippling through.</p>
<p>Anyway, nice to meet you! I will be keeping up with your blog for sure.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne Zelenka</title>
		<link>http://www.annezelenka.com/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-174</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Zelenka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 03:01:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.annezelenka.com/testbed/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-174</guid>
		<description>Yes, I pulled the Carr post. After I had calmed down, it seemed overwrought even though in the context of the 100% male conversation I was entering, I think my distress was reasonable. It's likely impossible for me to communicate what a punch in the stomach that phrase was to me given my outsider status--as not just a woman, but as a stay-at-home mom--so I decided I didn't want to continue the conversation.

I know, blogging code says: don't ever pull a post. Whatever. I've got to do this in a way that works for me or I'll have to quit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I pulled the Carr post. After I had calmed down, it seemed overwrought even though in the context of the 100% male conversation I was entering, I think my distress was reasonable. It&#8217;s likely impossible for me to communicate what a punch in the stomach that phrase was to me given my outsider status&#8211;as not just a woman, but as a stay-at-home mom&#8211;so I decided I didn&#8217;t want to continue the conversation.</p>
<p>I know, blogging code says: don&#8217;t ever pull a post. Whatever. I&#8217;ve got to do this in a way that works for me or I&#8217;ll have to quit.</p>
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		<title>By: joy</title>
		<link>http://www.annezelenka.com/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-171</link>
		<dc:creator>joy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 02:16:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.annezelenka.com/testbed/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-171</guid>
		<description>hi again.  i couldn't resist leaving a comment here also--our paths cross on this one too.  i too have written a hundred specs, and work as an arbiter between clients and programmers/developers. (and i also research HCI).

you say: "I think that the visual and the wordy need to work hand in hand to specify what good software is and what it will do."  I could not agree more--i have never yet come across a UI mockup or technical spec that is sufficient, and, more-to-the-point, legible to the clients.

i constantly find that in the race to build a site/tool, to produce that end product, the complex ways in which a site is intended to be used by specific communities gets left out of the picture.  and, more interestingly, sometimes it is impossible to predict how certain tools will be used, because users have not (cannot) articulate what it is they *actually* do.

your own work with the Megite site--you're working as a programmer, developer, and a potential user. you are occupying all three positions (i think) and creating from this perspective. (do correct me if i am off base here!)

this ability to occupy the role of the user--to predict user-behaviors, and needs, and envision interactions--this is also one large facet i find missing; i find a consistent disconnect between the realms of users and developers/programmers, who speak in different languages. this can be a source of tremendous frustration, and also why, when usability testing comes along, the programmers I work with want to run and hide!

i would say (and so does research) that much *more* time needs to go into the wordiness and conversations that occur before a single key stroke of programming.  either in the form of documents, interfaces, user-surveys, user-testing of similar tools, and f2f meetings.

sorry to drone on!  must go back to "real" work now.  i've enjoyed both your blogs, and will check in again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hi again.  i couldn&#8217;t resist leaving a comment here also&#8211;our paths cross on this one too.  i too have written a hundred specs, and work as an arbiter between clients and programmers/developers. (and i also research HCI).</p>
<p>you say: &#8220;I think that the visual and the wordy need to work hand in hand to specify what good software is and what it will do.&#8221;  I could not agree more&#8211;i have never yet come across a UI mockup or technical spec that is sufficient, and, more-to-the-point, legible to the clients.</p>
<p>i constantly find that in the race to build a site/tool, to produce that end product, the complex ways in which a site is intended to be used by specific communities gets left out of the picture.  and, more interestingly, sometimes it is impossible to predict how certain tools will be used, because users have not (cannot) articulate what it is they *actually* do.</p>
<p>your own work with the Megite site&#8211;you&#8217;re working as a programmer, developer, and a potential user. you are occupying all three positions (i think) and creating from this perspective. (do correct me if i am off base here!)</p>
<p>this ability to occupy the role of the user&#8211;to predict user-behaviors, and needs, and envision interactions&#8211;this is also one large facet i find missing; i find a consistent disconnect between the realms of users and developers/programmers, who speak in different languages. this can be a source of tremendous frustration, and also why, when usability testing comes along, the programmers I work with want to run and hide!</p>
<p>i would say (and so does research) that much *more* time needs to go into the wordiness and conversations that occur before a single key stroke of programming.  either in the form of documents, interfaces, user-surveys, user-testing of similar tools, and f2f meetings.</p>
<p>sorry to drone on!  must go back to &#8220;real&#8221; work now.  i&#8217;ve enjoyed both your blogs, and will check in again.</p>
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		<title>By: James Governor</title>
		<link>http://www.annezelenka.com/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-172</link>
		<dc:creator>James Governor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Feb 2006 01:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.annezelenka.com/testbed/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-172</guid>
		<description>you pulled the carr post? surprising?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you pulled the carr post? surprising?</p>
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		<title>By: Anne Zelenka</title>
		<link>http://www.annezelenka.com/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-170</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Zelenka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2006 01:24:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.annezelenka.com/testbed/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-170</guid>
		<description>I guess that works for simpler cases, but it seems to me that for data-intensive and highly dynamic apps, text descriptions of requirements may be more concise and useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess that works for simpler cases, but it seems to me that for data-intensive and highly dynamic apps, text descriptions of requirements may be more concise and useful.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Daines</title>
		<link>http://www.annezelenka.com/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-169</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Daines</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Feb 2006 12:15:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.annezelenka.com/testbed/2006/02/web-design-vs-software-engineering-smackdown#comment-169</guid>
		<description>This was sort of addressed on the 37signals blog, in this article: http://www.37signals.com/svn/archives2/the_interface_as_a_spec_including_stories_inline.php

Jason talks about putting little notes in the mocked-up interface where the functionality wouldn't be entirely obvious. I suppose it's sort of like a post-it note on the Chuck Jones wireframe saying "if Bugs just stands there eating the carrot, then..."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was sort of addressed on the 37signals blog, in this article: <a href="http://www.37signals.com/svn/archives2/the_interface_as_a_spec_including_stories_inline.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.37signals.com/svn/archives2/the_interface_as_a_spec_including_stories_inline.php</a></p>
<p>Jason talks about putting little notes in the mocked-up interface where the functionality wouldn&#8217;t be entirely obvious. I suppose it&#8217;s sort of like a post-it note on the Chuck Jones wireframe saying &#8220;if Bugs just stands there eating the carrot, then&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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